Muhammad's Youngest Wife ...
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Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

I had some questions about Muhammad and his youngest wife, called Aisha...

Am i right in saying that Aisha was 6 years old when Muhammad married her and Consummated their marriage sexually when Aisha was 9 years old?

Islam's own "Hadith" (the sayings of Muhammad) in Volume 7, Book 62, reports that Muhammad married Aisha at age 6, and when she was 9-years-old, he consummated their marriage and Muhammaed was about 52 years of age.

1. Is this morally correct? Forget about cultures about stuff, if somebody could answer this from a moral point of view wether it would be fair to do this or not. And if it's not fair, then why did Muhammed do this?

2. Isn't it common sense that a girl aged 9 would not be emotionally or sexually ready to undergo such changes in her life?

3. Isn't this kind of behaviour in the West world classed as whats called "Rape" ??

4. Isn't it a big age difference for somebody aged 52 to sexually consummate marriage with a girl aged 9? Thats 43 years difference.

5. With all do respect ... Is Rape considered ok if done in the name of Islam?

Thank you very very much for your time in answering my questions. I look forward to people's mature responses.

Kind Regards,
Scorpion
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Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:39 pm Post subject:

This thing was OK'ed by allah! So it is divine! No point questioning....

By the way, do you remember a David Koresh?

Here are some changes Muhammad underwent. At the end of his life, we find Muhammad had been supporting himself off the proceeds of a mob of looters and bandits he was supervising. If he was engaged in any honest work, I do not know of it. Let's look at David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidian cult. If you were a married male member of his group, you were separated from your wife and were expected to remain celibate. David Koresh however gets revelations from God, so he said, that this did not have to apply to him. After his death it is revealed that he was sleeping around with any woman he wanted to including pre-adolescent girls. I could care less what David Koresh may have taught or wrote, the man was a fraud. Anyone who teaches that God says one thing for their followers and another for themselves, is a fraud. If I remember correctly, Muhammad explained that a man may have as many as four wives, if he could support them and treat them equally. Muhammad had more then four wives because Allah said he was the exception to the rule. Sorry, this is not the way the God of the Book operates. Mohammmad fails my fraud test. Honesty? Broken treaties, and self serving revelations are marks of the way Muhammad operated, later in life. Need I mention the crime of assassinations for personal vendettas? As I see it, the Muhammad who did not recieve any revelations was a much better person then the one who did.
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:40 am Post subject:

Peace Scorpion,

You can read up on this subject on:

Moderators Joined: 31 Dec 2002 Posts: 1482

LOL. The article Lady Fatima gave was doing sooooo well until it reached this point: Now that we've taken an detailed look at an alleged moral difficulty in the life of Muhammad , for the sake of balance, let's take a look at a moral difficulty in the Bible.

The article was not specifically answering Christians, but non-Muslims, which includes pagans and people of other religions. But it has to go and talk about the Bible? Also, how come Muhammed's immorality is "alleged" but the Bible's "immorality" is not? Muslims, always trying to justify the actions of their beloved prophet. Hey, we Christians admitt that David and Solomon sinned against God by having many wives. But Muslims won't fess up to Muhammed's sins.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:07 am Post subject:

Peace Alpha,

My intention was not to bash the Bible. My aim was to answer Scorpion's question on Muhammad's marraige to Aisha.

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Its really disappointing to see Muslims using Circuler reasoning ...

They use the Bible to Prove the Quran, then Use the Quran To Disprove the Bible .. Just like Geologists go to Biologists .... And the Biologists go to Geologists ... Even a 4th Grader will tell you circuler reasoning does not get you anywhere.

Cany anybody explain my questions simply to me about how this is Possible? Without pointing fingers to the Bible.

Heres a little physical activity i want the Muslims and other people reading this to do ... Point Your Left hand's index finger (your first finger next to ure thumb) Towards your monitor ... So basically, point a finger towards the moniter.

Step 2. Now look at your other fingers, you'll notice whenever you point a finger at somebody you have 3 fingers pointing back at you. Now this is not about judging and stuff ... But listen guys ... If Muhammed is the GREATEST "prophet" ... Then shouldn't be following some kind of Moral standards or setting an example for non-beleivers? What would a non-beleiver think if they found out he married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age of 9? Dont you think they will find him a perverse? Hmm? Think about it without pointing fingers. Your own hadith says he married her at 6 n stuff. Is this morally correct? What kind of example does this set for other people? And also ... How is rape allowed by Allah if he's God? Why did that happen in the first place?

I really think sometimes ... People need to just sit down, with a cup of tea, open their brains, and do some serious thinking and think what they beleive in and judge for themselves wether its right or wrong. 1 Mistake ... 1 Mistake is all it takes for somebody to burn in the Lake of Fire.

How you guys ever wondered why Christianity is different from all other Beleifs? Such as Forgiveness of Sins, and that Jesus forgives our sins and if we Beleive in him we shall have eternal life ... Why is it Islam, Hinduism and all the rest teach that it's by works?

The Bible says ... That we are saved by grace, and not by works. Now wait a minute ... Satan does everything against Jesus and Christianity, so why is it that all Religions are in deep Conflict with Christianity? Are they created by Satan?

Guys ... this is not a physical war, not a question about religion, not a race about who's religion is the largest and fastes growing, not a question about works and how good you may be ... Its a question about your Soul and where its going.

Satan knows that people will Find Jesus ... he has to destract them. How does he do this? Simple ... create lots of religions and make people beleive there are many ways to get to God. Satan does not want to see people going to Heaven, Since the Garden of Eden incident, he knows that he cannot fight God, thats out of the question, so who does he get mad at and try to manipulate? Us. Humans. People. Our Minds.

Jesus has boldly claimed that he is THE way, the TRUTH, and THE life and that no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

I guess it's upto people who to Accept as God. The evidence and truth is out there though people, to whose who want to know their eternal destiny, the truth is out there. The truth is Jesus.

Just like Alpha says Fake Rolex's come after the real ones ... Jesus is the truth and Satan has brought about Islamic deception to deter and destroy Christianity.

Interesting how this has been done again we see ... Before a few hundred/few thousand years ago people Beleived that God created the world ... And then comes the lie about Creation ... Evolution. Now the new lie sweeping the globe is Evolution. It's interesting isn't it when you look at things from a birds eye view you can see things from a different perspective?

Dear Muslim Brothers/Sisters .. Please Spend A Few Minutes Of Your Life To Read This Comic Like Tract About Islam:

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Lady Fatima:

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:38 am Post subject:

Peace Scorpion,

I know by your response that you haven't read the link I gave you. For that, I'll ignore your entire post. However, for the last post you made: Yes Muhammad was sinless as were all the other prophets according to Islam. Do not, I repeat, do not bring me arguments from the Bible to prove that he did commit sins.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

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"Islam started as being strange, and it will return strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers"-Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Lady Fatima ...

Step 1. read my signature and keep that scripture in mind always.
Step 2. Read my entire post because im still reading the link that you gave me its quite long, but dont worry im reading it as i write this.

Lady Fatima:

So Muhammed was sinless? Meaning ... He was perfect?

Also ... could you explain to me without the need of any sites ... but by your personal opinion how Muhammed differs from a modern day Peadofile? I ask that with all do respect. Dont be offended

Could you explain to me all my original questions in my first post by yourself? I'd like to see your opinion on it and how you justify rape.

Thanks for your time

By the way, i wont bring you anything from the Bible to prove Muhammed was a sinner, i'll bring them from your own scriptures. Im just finishing off some college coursework, after i've finished i'll get ready to shoot some bullets and we'll fire up a really great discussion Specially on the life of Muhammed

I cant wait. Thanks for your time.
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Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

The Ultimate Sex Dream of a Pedophile

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Just for defination ... Heres what a Pedophile is ...

Noun: pedophile
Synonyms: paedophile

1. One who sexually desires children
2. An adult who is sexually attracted to children.

Types of:
degenerate
deviant
human
individual
mortal
person
pervert
somebody
someone
soul

God Bless you farside, Its good to know somebody in the world is awake.
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Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

UNICEF: Child marriages must stop

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Lady Fatima:

Im guessing your a women ... You do know right that boys and girls go through Puberty in their Teenage years and not in their childhood (eg, aged 6-9) ?

Well .. Dont you think if God wanted girls to be married at a younger age and engage themselves in sexual activities at the age of 9 that their bodies would physically develop earlier?

Does Allah not know that a girl aged 6 is not ready to be married and that a girl aged 9 Is not ready to undergo emotional and sexual changes in her life? If he's God, why all this problem? Have you ever sat down and asked yourself this without following other people's opinions and listened to your heart and questioned the problems this arises?

Science shows that its not wise to have sex at the age of 9, so why did not Allah stop Muhammed if he was God? Why did this happen?

Im very interesting in knowing what kind of example this sets to other people, specially non-beleivers. With all do respect ... Dont you think they immediately get the image of Muhammed being a rapist if a person saw this information?

Can anybody without using Circuler reasoning and Using Methodology such as "Drifting the subject" Give me answers to my questions, specially in my first post?

I would be interested in knowing your opinions on this topic.

Thanks.
_________________
Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 02:08 pm Post subject:

As far as I am concerned this another example of pre-islamic paganism adaptation into islam (allah being one of them)

Although I have a question to my friend Fatima... Fatima, I am assuming that you are in your late teens or early twenties, hope I am correct

, would you let a 50+ man touch you and sexually be in relation with you? Would you do this when you were 6, 9, or now? Would you sexually want a man of that age, or would you know you wanted him at that age? Would you know what he is doing to you?

Thank you...
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Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."John 14:6

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Preacher Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 471

SCorpion, Muhammad did not have sex when she was 9 years old. HE started having sex with her until she was around 15 years old. That link provided by lady fatimah fully answers all your questions especially the ones about morality. You don't have to be always right about your points, you tried to do the same when you associated Islam with Masons and you failed just like you failed here.

Bye.

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

OneGod:

You may want to read up why your wrong there ...

Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

To Consummate

Source -- Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Thanks Farside ...

OneGod:

Consummate according to Dictionary.com -

To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.

Sorry matey, looks like the Dictionary is right too. Sorry about this. Only thing left now is to maybe rip the dictionary and disprove world dictionaries so that you can stand up to say Muhammed was a Holy Prophet?

Guys ... Sometimes i really think why people to go such lengths to prove such ridiculous things and dont Pray to Jesus and give their life to him. I hope this thread has helped the one's with open hearts and minds to see one the dodgy Characteristics of Muhammed.

Dont you all think its something to think about? Even if this was a question of Culture ... Even if for example People in those days didn't know very much what was right from wrong ... Muhammed shouldn't be no different should he? He was the Greatest prophet right? He should have had divine knowledge from Allah about right and wrong should he have not?

Quote from

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 05:19 pm Post subject:

Everyone,

I'm going to throw something a little controversial into this discussion, because I believe this discussion is going nowhere. In fact, I'm wondering if it's beginning to move into discussions of issues that best belong elsewhere in these forums.

To all who read this, please understand, I am in no way justifying the actions of Muhammed in this situation as recorded in this history of Islam. But, as a Christian who has lived cross culturally most of my life, I have to point this out, or not to be true to myself. In discussing this issue, we MUST keep in mind some of the historical and cultural points that that article that Lady Fatima asked us to read raises.

This whole issue of young children being taken as wives for older men, is not something unique to a particular cultural group. It happens in many cultures, and not just in places like Africa. Infact, it's something that is very much part of our indigenous Aboriginal culture here in Australia. A girl baby, born into the clan of a specific group was/is promised at birth to an older man, often a clan leader/elder, many years older than herself, and on reaching puberty the girl goes to live within the household of her husband as his wife.

This whole issue, is still alive and well in the state I live here in Australia, and in fact, only late last year (2003) a law was passed by our state government, preventing people of any culture, including our indigenous culture have sexual relations with a girl under 16. This has caused controversy. One man, was jailed for taking his promise soon after the law was passed. This law, was specifically passed to address the issue of taking child wives, and although some of our well known local elders were on the committee to best discuss the law and how it should read, before it was passed, many other well known leaders, including a few who were on that committee, are very outspoken against it, saying it is part of their law and culture.

This is in the year 2003-4 and this issue is still an issue, not only here, but as has been mentioned in other parts of the world. Again, please let me underline the fact, I am not saying it is right!! I am saying, that culturally, we have to understand and look at situations, not from our western viewpoint, which are clouded by our own cultural values and rights and wrongs, but by trying to understand it from within the culture of the people who are condoning it. Only then can we begin to have the right to challenge and introduce change. It is also, the only way we can expect people to listen to us.

My knowledge of relationships between Islamic and non Islamic countries has shown me that this is a principal very few people take into account and it does nothing to assist in understanding the reasons behind many of the iinternational issues, that we in the west, are unable to comprehend.

The only way we can begin to understand, and not just use warfare to solve our international problems, is to try and understand from each others perspective. Only then do we have the right to speak out against injustice. I am not only speaking to those of us in so called "western countries" here, but also to those living in other places, "the non western countries." To not do this, particualarly as believers in God, is to be hypocrites and to bring dishonour to His Name. (regardless of whether we are Christian or Muslim). May I add also, that as a Christian, I believe this is EXACTLY why God incarnated and became a man? He spoke to us through the prophets in the past, but then he entered human history, confined himself into a specific cultural group and then presented truth within the context of that cultural framework. Only then, did the world truly begin to know God.

I know this may not be something that others on this forum agree with, but in all fairness, it must be said. History shows, few people have tried to do this and the history of missions, of jihads, of crusades, of international politics easily point out the result of this.

I wish us all peace and understanding as we dialogue together.

Carol
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. ... and the Word was made flesh and made His dwelling amongst us.
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Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

Five Stages of Puberty - Girls

source --

Scorpion · Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Carol: I agree with you there ... But i was specially intrigued by the fact that Muhammad should have known better should he have not if he truely was the greatest prophet?

Should he not be setting an example unto others?
Why did the "angel" gabriel not appear to Muhammad again to tell him Allah says its wrong to engage sexually with a 9 year old?

I find it quite interesting that Muhammad did not set an example unto others. The cultures were different then, But if he is a prophet, and especially if he claimed to be the Greatest prophet, should he have not had Divine knowledge from Allah to justify right from wrong?

Those are just my thoughts on the subject anyway. God Bless.
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Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Lady Fatima · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:34 am Post subject:

Peace to all,

What I suggest to all the Christians on this forum is to understand the different cultures of other people. Yes, some girls do marry as soon as they hit puberty, and yes Scorpion; many girls hit it at age 9. Many cultures, even until this day, have their girls married at a young age. It is a cultural thing. Now if I had a daughter who was at the age of 9, I wouldn’t allow her to marry for the simple fact I would want her to get an education. There are many girls in my country who marry at the ages of 9, 10 and 11 to help their families financially. Moreover, 9 years olds in Africa are much more mature than 9 year old in Australia. Well 9-year-old Australian girl is playing with her Barbie doll; these 9-year-old girls from Africa are cooking, cleaning and looking after their younger siblings. This is just how the world is. These sort of situations are not so frequent for the girls are attending school, however, in Muhammad’s time this was the norm. It was normal to marry a nine year old as long as she and her parents were ok with the marriage. You are using 21st century western thinking to judge Muhammad who lived in the 7th century.

It should be noted that it was not only young girls who married. Ahmed Ibn Hambal married at the age of 12.

Also Islamically speaking, a girl who has hit puberty is considered a young woman, not a child. We do not have this concept of a teenager, where you reach adulthood at the age of 21. In Islam, since her books are opened for her as soon as she hits puberty, then she would be in the same category as a grown woman.

So my point is, if a girl who has hit the age of puberty, agrees to marry a man, no matter his age, and her family consent, then this is fine. It should be up to the mother also to make rational decisions to see if her daughter is ready mentally and physically to marry, and if she is, then God bless their marriage.

That’s my input on the matter. If you all disagree, then frankly, I don’t give a damn.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

_________________
"Islam started as being strange, and it will return strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers"-Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)

Alpha · Moderators Joined: 31 Dec 2002 Posts: 1482

carol_au · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 08:35 am Post subject:

Hey Alpha

I appreciate your concern, but actually all Lady Fatima and I have done is to bring the discussion back on topic.

In his original post, Scorpion said

farside · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

The Character of Muhammad

Muhammad rose to the occasion and outlawed the consumption of alcohol in the Arabian culture.

Muhammad rose to the occasion and outlawed gambling in the Arabian culture.

Even though he was the absolute ruler of Arabia and he claimed to be the final prophet from Allah, Muhammad did not outlaw childhood marriages or the evil institution of slavery in the Arabian culture.

From the Farside

Scorpion · Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Lady Fatima:

Cultures will always vary ... So i wasn't too concerned about that, but thanks for your input.

I was rather concerned about things relating to morality and wether or not a 9 year old should be made to undergo sexual changes in her life.

Science shows its not safe for a 9 year old to do things like this obviously ... I dont think different kids hit puberty at different ages, thats not what seems to be happening.

Also, he married her at 6, and slept with her at the age of 9. What concerns me the most is that if this is wrong (which it is), which did Allah let this happen? Where was he then? Should Muhammed not be setting an example for others if he's the "greatest" of all prophets?

Muhammed's a sinner too, just like all the other prophets, everybody has sinned Except for Jesus.

Thanks for your time. I've found my answer.
_________________
Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

farside · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

A Devine Correlation

Spokesmen for tobacco companies will always argue that their cigarettes are safe regardless of the scientific data which indicate that cigarettes can cause cancer, heart disease, etc.

Spokesmen for Islam will always argue that child marriages are safe regardless of the scientific data which indicate that early childhood pregnancies can cause haemorrahage, sepsis, obstructed labour, etc.

=

From the Farside

Lady Fatima · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:19 am Post subject:

Peace to all,

I’ll give you all a short example of 2 nine year old girls, one from Somalia and another from Kenya. Before I begin, both of these girls were forced into marriage, and this is forbidden in Islam as Allah said:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will….” (4:19)

The nine year old from Somalia was a developed girl, not in mind but physically. She looked more like your average 15 year old. However, the Kenyan girl, was a tiny little girl, and had the body of a five year old. Both girls got pregnant, and the Kenyan girl died during the birth of her child while the Somali one survived. The point is that, even though both girls were forced into marriage, girls grow at different paces and because of that reality, it is up to the parents not to marry of a girl, no matter the age, who is not developed enough.

The second point is that since the marriage can only take place when the girl approves, it is highly unlikely that a nine year old, or even a 13 year old would want to get married, unless their parents put on a guilt trip.

Islam, does not rule out something which is permitted if the girl and her parents allow it. When a marriage takes place, the parents should always look out for the welfare of their child and this means her health. It is the parents’ responsibilities and God expects this from them. If there is a nine year old that can marry, like Aisha, and that everyone is fine with the arrangement, then it’s only fair that such a marriage should take place.

Now days, nine year old girls do not wish to marry, and on many occasions they are forced into marriages, which leads to death because of difficult pregnancies. This is not the fault of Islam, but the fault of the parents. The permission should be sought from the daughter, and then the parents should make the wise decisions. God will ask them of their responsibilities on the Day of Judgment. So if they fear Allah, they will do justice by their daughter.

In concluding, I do not disagree with young marriages if the right precautions take place and permission is sought from the daughter.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

_________________
"Islam started as being strange, and it will return strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers"-Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)

Bushmaster · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:44 am Post subject:

farside · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

Bushmaster, I have replaced the Flag of Turkey with a smiley of the Quranic Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

(P. S. Many Muslims do consider the Star and Crescent as a symbol of Islam, but not all.)

Farside

Bushmaster · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:37 pm Post subject:

Scorpion · Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Bushmaster: I'm going to be asking some questions about this later today

LadyFatima: If 9 year old's do not want to get married today ... Do you think a 6 year old would want to get married ... And what evidence do you have to back any claims that Aisha may have been physically ready? Does the Quran say her body was developed and ready for giving birth and stuff? Hmmm?

Would you personally, give the hand of your 6 year old daughter for example into the hands of a man above the age of 50?

Mohammed himself once deliberately struck Aisha "on the chest which caused me pain", according to Sahih Muslim vol.2 2127

Would you also allow a person to beat up your Child?

Thanks for your opinion.
_________________
Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Bushmaster · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:56 pm Post subject:

Scorpz check your PM bro...
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Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."John 14:6

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AH-64D Armament/Electrical/Avionics Systems
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farside · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

The KuruDisease and Childhood Marriages

Scorpion · Moderators Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 604

Farside: Your a man of Few words but a total Gem, God Bless You Brother.

_________________
Saying Jesus was a practising muslim is as ridiculous as saying Mohammed was a practising buddhist

Lady Fatima · Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 01:23 am Post subject:

Peace Scorpion,

farside · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 36

revised

Muhammad's Youngest Wife ... Goto page 1, 2 Next

Muhammad's Youngest Wife ... Goto page Previous 1, 2

Muhammad's Youngest Wife ...
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Muhammad's Youngest Wife ...
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